Lawdragon Studio: Talent Retention for Boutique Law Firms, with Lisa Tsai

WELCOME TO our INAUGURAL lawdragon studio conversation series, where we interview lawyers and legal experts on the legal industry and landscape. In this Interview, WE ARE DELIGHTED TO TALK WITH LISA TSAI, MANAGING PARTNER OF LITIGATION BOUTIQUE REID COLLINS & TSAI, on how to build a firm culture that encourages the retention of your top talent. HOSTED BY SENIOR EDITOR ALISON PREECE.

Click above to watch the video. Transcript is below. 

Lisa Tsai: Although attracting talent is one thing, what really keeps your talent, what keeps the lawyers at your firm and wanting to grow with you is: Can I ultimately become a lawyer who's satisfied? Can I get joy out of my practice even? Can I become an integral member of a team? Can I get just daily satisfaction from this career that I'm going to devote a lot of time to?

Lawdragon: I'm Alison Preece, senior editor at Lawdragon. I'm here today with Lisa Tsai, managing partner and hiring partner at the national trial boutique Reid Collins & Tsai. Lisa handles complex business disputes and is widely recognized as a leading plaintiffs' trial lawyer. To give you some idea, she had multiple eight and nine-figure verdicts and judgments under her belt before she even reached the age of 40. Lisa is also one of only a handful of minority women leading prominent law firms in the U.S. today. Last year, Lisa received the Justice David Wellington Chew Award, the highest award bestowed by the Asian Pacific Interest Section of the State Bar of Texas for her achievements in leadership and her commitment to the advancement of Asian American attorneys. Lisa, thank you for joining me today.

LT: Thank you. It's great to be here, Alison.

LD: So let's start from the beginning. When did you become hiring partner and separately managing partner at Reid Collins and what brought you to those roles?

LT: I would say I've been doing hiring really for the entirety of my career. Back in my associate days I had even been involved. And then of course when I became a partner, I naturally began taking on that role probably because I gravitated towards it. Also, because I think being in the position I am, especially as a woman, especially as an ethnic minority, I am uniquely situated to be able to talk to certain candidates who might align or affiliate in some way. And then of course at this firm, as the years have gone on and they've gone by pretty quickly, it was a natural thing for me to do because it was important to build this firm being one of its co-founders, and there could be nothing more important than the recruiting, the retention of our talent. And ultimately over time I became and have filled the role as managing partner over the last three years.

LD: Let's talk about why lawyers want to stay or leave at any given firm. Is money typically the main driver or is there something more at play?

LT: This is an interesting question. I think that we have to separate out the question of what attracts lawyers to firms to begin with versus what might keep them there. And I do think it is a different analysis. It may be the case, and I think it is probably still frequently the case that compensation packages, especially for these new candidates, new law school graduates just coming out can be very attractive and that can be the initial hook and Big Law firms know that, which is why they're constantly trying to drive up that initial starting salary. But ultimately, I do not think compensation is enough to keep folks at a firm. And I think that's why you see, and it plays out in the numbers, so many associates, those who really are in some ways just on the cusp of that really nice spot in their career, you'll see them all of a sudden leave. People think that's mysterious, but it's actually not, if you really understand what drives people, what makes them happy, what ultimately is going to make them satisfied in their career.

The real talent war that's going on is about keeping the talent. Who wants to bring on the best and the brightest for two years only to have them unhappy and dissatisfied and fatigued and wanting to be anywhere but your law firm?

LD: So let's talk about some of those things. And you mentioned new grads specifically. So with Millennials and Gen Z lawyers, are you finding that they want something different from the firms that they work at?

LT: Yes, without doubt. I think at some level all humans are looking for the same thing, whether it's out of their career, out of their lives generally. But in particular with these younger generations, be it millennials or Gen Zs, and of course I'm a Gen Xer, so just a step above that, but they're more vocal I'd say and more focused on those balances they want in life, whether it be just an understanding of flexibility of other circumstances they have in their lives like all of us do, or the idea that it shouldn't be about say face time in the office or things of that nature. But I think at its core, it all boils down to, folks, including especially these newer generations, they want to be seen, they want to be heard, they want to be integrated. They don't just want to be a cog in the wheel. And that requires really a sea change for at least what some larger institutional firms have been doing now for quite some time in the workplace.

LD: That makes a lot of sense. They want to be part of the fabric of the firm and sort of lead its future growth.

LT: That's right.

LD: So talk to us about what you're doing at Reid Collins that allows you to attract and more importantly retain the best talent?

LT: Touching on some of what we just discussed, first and foremost, at core we are providing meaningful experience to our younger attorneys. So I know there's a lot of talk about this in the industry and a lot of firms will say that's their goal, and I do think most firms are aspiring to give that experience, but a lot of times the firm structure doesn't allow for it. At a boutique like ours, what is very different is that we can really make good on those promises. We are actually able to provide these meaningful experiences to our younger attorneys to train them up. And it comes down to the kind of work we're doing and how things are staffed and structured.

So for example, I just tried a case last summer. I was very intentional about the staffing. I kept it to three attorneys. There's me as the first chair, I have a junior partner as my second chair. I have a first year associate as the only other attorney on the team. I did that on purpose because I knew as we approached trial, I knew it was going to be a week and a half trial, but we'd have few witnesses as in longer witnesses, but not as many opportunities. So to give that trial experience to that first year associate, I had to be deliberate. I was, and she was able to cross examine her first witness ever, and it was awesome. So that is just one example, but we do provide those meaningful experiences.

I'd say the second-biggest thing is, what is your firm culture? Here at Reid Collins, we very much from the top down believe in all of these aspects that we're talking about today, integrating our people, training them up, mentoring them, really investing in them and being transparent. So I think what a lot of firms suffer from is they want to keep everything in a black box. They want to just dribble out the information when they want to teach younger attorneys. It's on a need-to-know basis. They want to only bring in those younger attorneys on a call here and there about discovery or some small matter they're working on. But that's no way to teach these young attorneys how to become a trial lawyer. They need to see a full case from soup to nuts, from A to Z, and they need to be integrated into the team. And so that is one of the things that we do to make sure that our folks are truly trained up in that way.

And then we are transparent with the information about internal firm workings, about our finances, about compensation, honest, open discussions where oftentimes we're receiving their feedback and responding to it as well.

LD: You mentioned mentorship, which really came under the microscope during the pandemic and still is as a lot of firms are working partly from home. So what would you say that effective mentorship looks like?

LT: I think mentorship could probably take a lot of forms and be effective, but what has to undergird any kind of mentorship is time and real investment. So it can't just be a mentorship program in name only and it can't be mentorship by somebody who isn't well suited to you or isn't doing what you want to do or doesn't have the skill set you aspire to have. So there does have to be a good matching, and I think it has to be really time intensive. I think it has to be devoted. I think it has to be direct.

And so for me, what it looks like is frankly what I had the benefit of through my partner, Bill Reid, who's 10 years my senior and trained me up, is that very hands-on, every time I'm working with this associate or that associate, I'm bringing them into the fold. I'm telling them gratuitously frankly, "Hey, by the way, on this particular issue, this is how you're going to want to handle it." Or if you see a particular thing happening or not happening, you tell them on the ground and in the field and when you're in the trenches, "Hey, good job, but next time, this is the way you really need to approach this issue so that you can elevate to that next step or be that next chain of command for that client." So it's a lot of these little iterative actions and interactions I'd say that make up good mentorship.

These newer generations, they want to be seen, they want to be heard, they want to be integrated. They don't just want to be a cog in the wheel. And that requires really a sea change.

And then ultimately I think you have to care. I think it can't just be an assignment to you. I think you have to mentor because you truly are invested in that person. You want to see them do well. For me personally, I find at this stage in my career, 22 years in, that mentoring the next, it's not even now one generation below me, mentoring the next two generations below me is probably the most satisfying thing I do. I mean, it's a close second or probably with just being an advocate for a client who's in need, but it's really close because by the time you're at the point where you've climbed the mountain and you've acquired the skills, what better thing is there than to give that down to the next level of folks who are trying to do the same thing and that you see so much promise in as well. So I think that's the other big ingredient. You got to care, you got to put in the time, and I think that's what makes a great mentor.

LD: So what's some of the best advice that you received from your mentors when you were coming up?

LT: I have one primary mentor who really shaped me. I mean, I really would say he taught me everything I know about trial work. And that's my partner, Bill Reid, who we ended up forming this firm together years later. I remember like it happened yesterday, some advice he gave me. We were on a trip, we were out in California for a case and we were having coffee. He's reading the newspaper back when people did that kind of thing. And I asked him a question that was serious, but he's reading his paper, he is drinking his coffee. And I said, "I don't see out there other people who look like me who are doing what you're doing, who are at the top of this field, who are really the first chair trial lawyers in the courtroom and leading the charge. And they're the big lawyer." And so I asked him, "How do I know what my path is going to look like and whether or not I can get there if there's nobody else around me who looks like me?"

And Bill just very casually without missing a beat, said, "Oh, Lisa, you'll probably just be the first one." And he told me, "It doesn't matter that there's not someone who looks just like you and is just like you who's come before you. You're going to set your own path." Those words really stuck with me, and I actually think ultimately it stayed with me and allowed me to help keep building just in the back of my mind knowing I might just be in some ways the first of my kind, if you will, to enter certain areas or reach a certain milestone. And maybe I have in some ways at this point.

LD: When you have had departures of really valued team members, were you able to figure out the reasons behind that?

LT: So we've been very fortunate that we don't have the kind of attrition you would see at a Big Law firm. And look, there's good reason for that, probably some of the things we've been talking about today. That said, of course, like at any institution, we've lost folks here and there, and at least at our firm, given the nature of how we have things structured, it's typically because these associates ultimately have figured out they don't want to do trial work. But I'll tell you, I actually in each and every instance, although always sad to see a departure or someone who is both our colleague, our friend, and who we love to work with, I'm also happy for them in the sense that ultimately, at least at our firm, we want that whole person, that whole attorney to succeed not just for our firm but in their life.

So if we've been able to give them meaningful enough experience to where they have figured out what it means to be a trial lawyer and what it means to do this work and have this practice, and from that they've concluded, "Hey, I want to go a different path. Trial work is not for me." Just like we've had folks who've been transactional attorneys in a prior life and have come to us ready figured out transactional is not for them. They want to come and be in the courtroom. That's what I want ultimately for these young lawyers. And frankly, it's why I left Big Law when I did. I could see that the trajectory to even figuring out what does it mean to be a lawyer? What does it mean to be the advocate for the client? What does it mean to do trial work and what kind of practice do I want to have?

Couldn't figure it out at a place where the path was so long to even get those first and second and third experiences much less actually do a trial or do multiple trials. That road seemed too long. Whereas at a boutique like ours, there's this short discreet path that you can take to figure it out. And ultimately my hope for all these young lawyers is that of course I want them to learn our craft and want to stay and love it, but at the very least, if they determine they don't, I want them to be able to figure that out.

LD: So now you're a woman and a woman of color, which is still really rare to see in leaders in the legal industry. So did you experience a lot of biases or other difficulties that made it hard to rise as you have in your career?

LT: I'm definitely a very half glass full person, so I tend to generally answer that question in the negative. But I'll say this, I think that all people with anything that makes them a little bit different, whether you're a woman, whether you're an ethnic minority, frankly, whether you're young, I actually think that can be one of the bigger hurdles for lawyers as they come up through the system and try to gain responsibility and trust of their clients. I would say all of those groups face some sort of misjudgment at times about who they are and what they're capable of. And so I certainly had those experience, many at times, where people clearly had certain misapprehensions about who I was, what I was capable of, whether I could bring the fight. I'm the plaintiffs' lawyer obviously, and I do work in the courtroom, and I do think there are some misperceptions depending on how you look, and maybe depending on where the perceiver is from or who they've seen in the past.

You have to care. I think it can't just be an assignment to you. I think you have to mentor because you truly are invested in that person.

But I would also say that each and every time I think those folks who might have those misperceptions, they stand corrected, and that actually brings some level of satisfaction. Whether or not they change their point of view, I don't know. But I got to think each and every one of those experiences influences and just slightly little by little starts to change people's perceptions about the folks around them, including the lawyers who are opposite them or who show up in their courtroom or whatever the circumstance may be. So I guess I would say sure, I think that definitely I've experienced some of those biases, but I've never been defined by them. And I think that the key is you just keep showing the merits of who you are and that ultimately, I think in today's world, whether it's trial work or anything else, that's going to prevail.

LD: I think you're right. I think it's the thing that slowly shifts perception. We're talking both about recruiting and retention. So can you speak to the differences between those two efforts?

LT: Yes, I'm very glad for the question because I think it is a very important difference, which I'm not sure all firms out there are recognizing. If they're not, they need to kind of hop on board the train, which is, attracting the talent, for a firm that's reputable and has cachet in the industry, is not going to be what's difficult, and especially those who can offer top compensation packages. But the real game, the real talent war that's going on is about keeping the talent. Who wants to bring on the best and the brightest for two years only to have them unhappy and dissatisfied and fatigued and wanting to be anywhere but your law firm? That is certainly not what we want.

Ultimately, I think what is at issue here, not just for our firm, but really for this entire profession, you could argue for the integrity of what we're doing is figuring out a way to bring up and to promote happiness in this profession. Happy lawyers. It shouldn't be an oxymoron. I mean, it's notorious that law firm associates and there've been studies done on this, survey after survey, are some of the most unhappiest, well-compensated people out there. And I'm here to tell you, I don't think it has to be that way. A happy lawyer is one who's going to provide excellent service to their client, who's going to be the best team member to their colleagues, who frankly when they go home at night as well or on the weekends, is going to be better as a spouse and a partner and a parent and all of the other things we have going on in our lives.

So I think it's a bigger question, but I do think it's about retention, and I think retention at its essence is not just about the dollar. I think it's about providing someone with satisfaction and meaning and purpose and understanding that what they're doing is important and their contributions matter and that they've built something up that is a lasting profession that's going to leave a mark, a positive one on the people around them. And so that's what I hope all firms start striving for.

LD: So now we know it's still notoriously really hard to retain female talent at law firms. And listen, firms definitely need to do better for sure. But what advice do you have for women who are building their careers, but they also have young families or other personal obligations and who might be considering leaving the law?

LT: I can definitely speak to this I think with credibility. So I am of course the managing partner of this law firm of about 40 lawyers with several different offices. I have four children, all of whom are school age and like everyone else, I have the other parts of it, the aging parents and the in-laws and the pets and all of the circumstances that life will throw you. And I do stay very involved in my community. I sit on boards and I do other things that I care about. So what I would say is my best piece of advice is to stick with it.

Retention at its essence is not just about the dollar. It's about providing someone with satisfaction and meaning and purpose and understanding that what they're doing is important and their contributions matter.

I can't emphasize enough that if you can actually build your practice, if you can actually invest in yourself, if you can frankly get through what I would describe in a marathon, and I've run a couple marathons, so I could also say this with some knowledge. But if you can run through that kind of mile 20, trust me, it is so satisfying to get to mile 26. You will never regret that, in my view, to get to the top of the mountain. But I say this and I know it's one thing to say, and it really is another thing to do. So to put it in more practical terms, I think women often already behave, they already set themselves up, if you will, to leave the profession. And what I mean is they're already thinking several years ahead. And so even maybe as a young lawyer, you may be thinking to yourself, "I'm not going to be here in a few years anyway. Therefore..." And that affects all of your actions.

So you're not trying for every opportunity. You're not trying to seize those best cases or all of those outings with those partners who might be very influential or with the potential clients who you could be networking with and you're not positioning yourself. Because I think that a lot of women are already assuming internally they're not going to be there one day. And unfortunately, I do think the numbers bear it out. I mean, what we have seen is, and particularly now, it is majority of women students at law schools, and that's been true now for many years actually. Today, 86 percent of law schools report having more women students than male students. If anything, I mean, there's an imbalance there actually in the law schools right now in all higher institutions of learning.

But when you get to those higher positions, let's just take in the private law firm world, you've only got 22 percent of equity partners who are women. So the big question for all of us in the industry who are managing firms, who are recruiting talent, who are retaining talent, is what happens in that squishy middle? And I can tell you, because I'm living it, because I'm still part of that age group between 35 and 55 who make up the majority of women who do leave the profession. But what I'm here to tell you is that although that journey is hard, and I'm not here to say it is not fraught with experiences that sometimes might make you cry or get really frustrated. If you push through it, there's really something great waiting for you and very satisfying.

LD: That's very inspiring. I love that. Okay, so what would you say is your top advice to other boutique firms when it comes to attracting and retaining top talent?

LT: Listen, I think boutique firms are actually at an advantage. I don't think it's touted and marketed and maybe widely understood and known, but if you put all together the concepts we're talking about today, I think ultimately, although attracting talent is one thing, what really keeps your talent, what keeps lawyers at your firm and wanting to grow with you is: Can I ultimately become a lawyer who is satisfied? Can I get joy out of my practice even? Can I become an integral member of a team? Can I get just daily satisfaction from this career that I'm going to devote a lot of time to? I think boutique law firms are the ones that are well situated to provide that, because we don't have the red tape, we don't have the bureaucracy. Any person, any new associate can walk into my office as managing partner and give me their feedback, and we can make a change the next day.

In some just small examples, but again, they kind of all go to the core of what I'm talking about. But all of our folks have stand-up desks. Some of them even have treadmills, although I'm more skeptical of those. Folks seem to like them at least a couple here and there. We've got a hyperbaric chamber. That one's a little odd probably. We have a wellness program. We even right now have a little pet dog in the office, a little puppy. We have ridiculous snacks that are all organic and they're very pasture raised for sure. We have a chef who comes in and brings in lunch for everyone several days a week. And it's all of these things that sort of comprise part of just, what is it like day in, day out to be at this firm, to be in this office? What is your experience? Why do you show up? Why is it that you're doing this? You're devoting the hours.

And then on a more serious level, we put our money where our mouth is. Part of what I talked about earlier, developing that firm culture from top down of integration and teamwork and mentoring and building and training and giving those meaningful experiences. Well, it can also manifest in the way you compensate. So every time at our firm where there's an extraordinary recovery and there's a bonus event, which we do throughout the year as a plaintiffs' law firm, we don't just reward the partners. We're rewarding all the associates. We're rewarding every single staff member at the same time because to us, we are trying to send the message. We are all part of the same team, and we are all pulling on the same rope. And I don't think anything could say it louder than the way in which we choose to reward people.

So all of those things, I think are some of examples of how a boutique firm can really rise to the top in a world in which what you see in the headlines, at least in the law journals, is about the salary scales, the chasing of those scales by one global firm after another. Boutiques are offering something far different. I think you can be very well compensated, especially at a national boutique firm, but you can get the other side of the coin, which is you can get that very lifelong career-long satisfaction in your practice, which is going to ultimately keep you there.

LD: Lisa, thank you so much for joining me today to discuss talent recruiting and retention in the boutique world.

LT: Thanks so much, Alison. I really enjoyed it.